Updating tcl-bytecode compiler in tclpro

[Michael Niehren]

Hi together,

as Activestate stop's development of the TDK, there is currently no bytecode-compiler
availiabe, which work's well for tcl V8.6. The tclpro project was outdated and the
code of the compiler has to be adapted to work well with tcl V8.6.

As i am not familiar with tcl internals, so i am not able to do it myself, but i will integrate
it in tclexecomp (http://tclexecomp.sourceforge.net/), if someone with the necessary
knowledge would do that.

Maybe we find here someone on the list, who has this knowledge and can do the changes. As far
as i know, only small changes should be necessary. In the fedora repositories i found an standalone
tclcompiler package from 2006:

http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/repo/pkgs/tclcompiler/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz/6e4c81bd2a1ee86d3043326c9615528b/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz

I think it is an important feature for every commercial software developer, that he can hide his
source code.

Is anyone else interested in this Feature ?

best regards
Michael

[Harald Oehlmann]

Hi Michael,

Post by Michael Niehren
Hi together,
as Activestate stop's development of the TDK, there is currently no bytecode-compiler
availiabe, which work's well for tcl V8.6. The tclpro project was outdated and the
code of the compiler has to be adapted to work well with tcl V8.6.
As i am not familiar with tcl internals, so i am not able to do it
myself, but i will integrate
it in tclexecomp (http://tclexecomp.sourceforge.net/), if someone with the necessary
knowledge would do that.
Maybe we find here someone on the list, who has this knowledge and can
do the changes. As far
as i know, only small changes should be necessary. In the fedora
repositories i found an standalone
http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/repo/pkgs/tclcompiler/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz/6e4c81bd2a1ee86d3043326c9615528b/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz
I think it is an important feature for every commercial software
developer, that he can hide his
source code.
Is anyone else interested in this Feature ?
best regards
  Michael

I also think this is a crucial point for TCL.
When ActiveState announced to stop TCL Dev Kit, Andreas Kuppries reacted
here, that the changes made for 8.6 (in his ActiveState time) could be
released to the public.

Thank you,
Harald

[Goodwin Lawlor]

I asked about this back in July but got no response

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/comp.lang.tcl/I4qhuznZnrM

[Gerald Lester]

Post by Goodwin Lawlor
I asked about this back in July but got no response
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/comp.lang.tcl/I4qhuznZnrM

I just asked on the AS TDK forum:
https://community.activestate.com/node/21965

[Goodwin Lawlor]

Thanks Gerald - I read the reply to you post and it doesn't sound encouraging.

Goodwin

[Gerald Lester]

Post by Goodwin Lawlor
Thanks Gerald - I read the reply to you post and it doesn't sound encouraging.
Goodwin

grahams ActiveState Staff
Tue, 2017-08-22 17:51
What we will OpenSource depends on suitability and sustainability.
Before a component can be OpenSourced, there would need to be one or
more maintainers and a internal usage review has to be completed. There
are already some discussions underway, but it's open-ended and there is
no impending deadline for the process to be done.
It's not clear yet if any of the three bytecode compilers would be part
of the first spin-outs. Working out the interdependencies is part of the
reviews. As you probably know, many things in the old Dev Kits need each
other in order to be viable, and until the reviews are complete the list
won't be final.
---
They give as condition, that there is a future maintainer.
Is there anybody volontering ?
In addition, they list the dependencies. Is there anybody who may
comment on that ? I suppose, the compiler component depends on the
runtime component...
I would continue to state, that there is interest in the community.
My company purchased a TCLDevKit licence still the beginning just for
this component.
Thank you,
Harald

Harald,

You may want to reply in the forum -- I'm not at all sure that the
remaining people at AS read c.l.t. or are on TkChat or the #tcl IRC channel.

[Harald Oehlmann]

Post by Gerald Lester
Harald,
You may want to reply in the forum -- I'm not at all sure that the
remaining people at AS read c.l.t. or are on TkChat or the #tcl IRC channel.

Gerald,

thank you for the message !

I already did this morning (for you 2h at night), but it did not appear
jet in the forum. Also your post and its reply is not visible when one
clicks on the forum list(
https://community.activestate.com/forums/tdk-support ) but is mentioned
in the overview ( https://community.activestate.com/forums/tcl-dev-kit ).

Wether the forum is moderated or very slow. Also your initial post took
one day to appear (by the link). Thats why I have copied it to clt...

Thanks,
Harald

[Gerald Lester]

Post by Harald Oehlmann

Post by Gerald Lester
Harald,
You may want to reply in the forum -- I'm not at all sure that the
remaining people at AS read c.l.t. or are on TkChat or the #tcl IRC channel.

Gerald,
thank you for the message !
I already did this morning (for you 2h at night), but it did not appear
jet in the forum. Also your post and its reply is not visible when one
clicks on the forum list(
https://community.activestate.com/forums/tdk-support ) but is mentioned
in the overview ( https://community.activestate.com/forums/tcl-dev-kit ).
Wether the forum is moderated or very slow. Also your initial post took
one day to appear (by the link). Thats why I have copied it to clt...

Interesting

[s***@gmail.com]

Post by Michael Niehren
Hi together,
as Activestate stop's development of the TDK, there is currently no bytecode-compiler
availiabe, which work's well for tcl V8.6. The tclpro project was outdated and the
code of the compiler has to be adapted to work well with tcl V8.6.
As i am not familiar with tcl internals, so i am not able to do it myself, but i will integrate
it in tclexecomp (http://tclexecomp.sourceforge.net/), if someone with the necessary
knowledge would do that.
Maybe we find here someone on the list, who has this knowledge and can do the changes. As far
as i know, only small changes should be necessary. In the fedora repositories i found an standalone
http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/repo/pkgs/tclcompiler/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz/6e4c81bd2a1ee86d3043326c9615528b/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz
I think it is an important feature for every commercial software developer, that he can hide his
source code.
Is anyone else interested in this Feature ?
best regards
Michael

In a somewhat acrimonious interaction (verbal and written) representatives of activestate made it clear that tcl was not a (sic) market-driver for them . IMHO their focus is on python and any "new stuff" that they believe will excite and delight the techno-weenies and businesses who would prefer use those, fast-food, type of languages rather than invest the time in 'learning' tcl\tk.

[Robert]

Post by s***@gmail.com

Post by Michael Niehren
Hi together,
as Activestate stop's development of the TDK, there is currently no bytecode-compiler
availiabe, which work's well for tcl V8.6. The tclpro project was outdated and the
code of the compiler has to be adapted to work well with tcl V8.6.
As i am not familiar with tcl internals, so i am not able to do it myself, but i will integrate
it in tclexecomp (http://tclexecomp.sourceforge.net/), if someone with the necessary
knowledge would do that.
Maybe we find here someone on the list, who has this knowledge and can do the changes. As far
as i know, only small changes should be necessary. In the fedora repositories i found an standalone
http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/repo/pkgs/tclcompiler/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz/6e4c81bd2a1ee86d3043326c9615528b/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz
I think it is an important feature for every commercial software developer, that he can hide his
source code.
Is anyone else interested in this Feature ?
best regards
Michael

In a somewhat acrimonious interaction (verbal and written) representatives of activestate made it clear that tcl was not a (sic) market-driver for them . IMHO their focus is on python and any "new stuff" that they believe will excite and delight the techno-weenies and businesses who would prefer use those, fast-food, type of languages rather than invest the time in 'learning' tcl\tk.

I don't blame them. They are a company out to make money like most. They have limited resources and must make decisions based on those two things.

[s***@gmail.com]

Post by Robert

Post by s***@gmail.com

Post by Michael Niehren
Hi together,
as Activestate stop's development of the TDK, there is currently no bytecode-compiler
availiabe, which work's well for tcl V8.6. The tclpro project was outdated and the
code of the compiler has to be adapted to work well with tcl V8.6.
As i am not familiar with tcl internals, so i am not able to do it myself, but i will integrate
it in tclexecomp (http://tclexecomp.sourceforge.net/), if someone with the necessary
knowledge would do that.
Maybe we find here someone on the list, who has this knowledge and can do the changes. As far
as i know, only small changes should be necessary. In the fedora repositories i found an standalone
http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/repo/pkgs/tclcompiler/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz/6e4c81bd2a1ee86d3043326c9615528b/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz
I think it is an important feature for every commercial software developer, that he can hide his
source code.
Is anyone else interested in this Feature ?
best regards
Michael

In a somewhat acrimonious interaction (verbal and written) representatives of activestate made it clear that tcl was not a (sic) market-driver for them . IMHO their focus is on python and any "new stuff" that they believe will excite and delight the techno-weenies and businesses who would prefer use those, fast-food, type of languages rather than invest the time in 'learning' tcl\tk.

I don't blame them. They are a company out to make money like most. They have limited resources and must make decisions based on those two things.
--
Bob

Well, I do blame them. My company had far fewer resources. The difference is we never 'sold new' without 'fixing the old'. That is the very least we owed current customers.

[s***@gmail.com]

Post by Robert

Post by s***@gmail.com

Post by Michael Niehren
Hi together,
as Activestate stop's development of the TDK, there is currently no bytecode-compiler
availiabe, which work's well for tcl V8.6. The tclpro project was outdated and the
code of the compiler has to be adapted to work well with tcl V8.6.
As i am not familiar with tcl internals, so i am not able to do it myself, but i will integrate
it in tclexecomp (http://tclexecomp.sourceforge.net/), if someone with the necessary
knowledge would do that.
Maybe we find here someone on the list, who has this knowledge and can do the changes. As far
as i know, only small changes should be necessary. In the fedora repositories i found an standalone
http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/repo/pkgs/tclcompiler/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz/6e4c81bd2a1ee86d3043326c9615528b/tclcompiler-20061030cvs.tgz
I think it is an important feature for every commercial software developer, that he can hide his
source code.
Is anyone else interested in this Feature ?
best regards
Michael

In a somewhat acrimonious interaction (verbal and written) representatives of activestate made it clear that tcl was not a (sic) market-driver for them . IMHO their focus is on python and any "new stuff" that they believe will excite and delight the techno-weenies and businesses who would prefer use those, fast-food, type of languages rather than invest the time in 'learning' tcl\tk.

I don't blame them. They are a company out to make money like most. They have limited resources and must make decisions based on those two things.
--
Bob

In fact, I will go even further and suggest that, looking at their bug reports, the defect level of their products would be unacceptable in our marketplace.

If you don't have the resources to cover your bases, then drop one; don't add more.

So, the net of it is, you make decisions, on what kind of company you want to be and how you want to be known - in the long term, that is what determines success or failure.

[EL]

Post by s***@gmail.com
In a somewhat acrimonious interaction (verbal and written) representatives of activestate made it clear that tcl was not a (sic) market-driver for them . IMHO their focus is on python and any "new stuff" that they believe will excite and delight the techno-weenies and businesses who would prefer use those, fast-food, type of languages rather than invest the time in 'learning' tcl\tk.

Hm ok.
That was to be expected. They haven't done anything in terms of
development for several years now... when I looked at the Dev Kit, three
years ago, it looked the same way and had the same bugs as about 12
years ago when I first used it.
The bytecode compiler back then was not even able to compile TclOO
classes or itcl classes, and still had trouble with namespaces,
especially procedures declared in namespaces. I wondered how a product
so badly kept up to date could survive such a long time.

Personally I see three things, where AS served a good job for me recently:

- The windows builds, nice to have it all out of the box
- the basekits and kitdll (actually tclkits with most up to date VFS)
- teapot/teacup.

If all of that could be taken over by the community, I would be glad to
drop ActiveTcl usage.

* Windows Builds
I think that shouldn't be too complicated. I could setup MSVC projects
to build Tcl itself, I am doing this for extensions already all the time

* basekits:
Actually I started already to look around for basekit replacements and
found that rkeene's Tclkit build scripts do a good job. At least on
macOS and linux... Its just that they contain tclvfs 1.3 instead of 1.4,
which hits me in some way for my Tloona project.

* teapot/teacup
This should be open sourced, imho - or reimplemented. I don't consider
it as too complicated, but I do consider it as *very important*! All the
languages nowadays suck their dependencies from some online repository,
while they are used. Ruby has rake, Clojure has lein, Python has pip,
Rust has cradle... it is a must have for Tcl to have something similar.
Whether AS will opensource it or not, I think it must be threated as
highest priority by the community to pick it up. And if AS doesn't get
it open sourced soon, I even think it should be reimplemented before.
I'd be happy to host extension repositories on my VPS and participate in
the development/maintenance.

[EL]

Post by EL
Rust has cradle

Messed something up here. I mean cargo, not cradle ;)

[Ashok]

Post by EL
- The windows builds, nice to have it all out of the box
- the basekits and kitdll (actually tclkits with most up to date VFS)
- teapot/teacup.

Note there are already at least four Windows binary builds in addition
to ActiveState. See http://www.tcl.tk/software/tcltk/bindist.html

/Ashok

[Harald Oehlmann]

Post by Ashok
Note there are already at least four Windows binary builds in addition
to ActiveState. See http://www.tcl.tk/software/tcltk/bindist.html

Yes, Ashok, and we all enjoy your binaries !

I would never remind you about binaries for 8.6.7 with great twapi
included ;-)

Thank you,
Harald

[s***@gmail.com]

Post by Harald Oehlmann

Post by Ashok
Note there are already at least four Windows binary builds in addition
to ActiveState. See http://www.tcl.tk/software/tcltk/bindist.html

Yes, Ashok, and we all enjoy your binaries !
I would never remind you about binaries for 8.6.7 with great twapi
included ;-)
Thank you,
Harald

I'll second that ...

[Gerald Lester]

Post by EL
...
- the basekits and kitdll (actually tclkits with most up to date VFS)
...

Personally, I found the GUI based wrapping tool the most useful and
used. Although if the community is going to take it over, it would be
nice to be able to also wrap/generate Android APKs (using AnrdoWish for
the "basekit").

[stevel]

Post by Gerald Lester
Personally, I found the GUI based wrapping tool the most useful and
used. Although if the community is going to take it over, it would be
nice to be able to also wrap/generate Android APKs (using AnrdoWish for
the "basekit").

It would be opportune to also switch to zipkits at the same time. A topic for discussion at the conference, if not before?